the actual answer is that 'trad' is a conservative aesthetic, and one that implicitly defines itself contrary to atheism by donning Catholic symbols, which is a rich vein. But because it dons the mantle of christianity, it cannot ever, really, be atheist as well, aesthetically speaking. the two streams are contradictory!
it doesnt help that 'trad atheism' has less aethetica to work with, having only existed, really, since the founding of classical liberalism, but it certainly still exists! One might argue that the Soviets and their cultural outputs were the closest thing we have to what could be called 'trad atheism'.
The reason you dont see 'trad atheists' in america in particular is because America has spent enormous amounts of time, money, and energy discrediting its former adversary through its propaganda outreach. (not hyperbole, im not using the word propaganda here morally, only descriptively)
Trad Catholicism is a very modern/postmodern movement, and they don’t have steady continuity with anything. It’s an identity constructed in reaction to the reforms of Vatican II and in opposition to the postconciliar magisterium of the church, and couldn’t exist without the conciliar reforms. In many geographical areas, they are rejecting actual continuous Catholic traditions in favour of their specific brand of LARPing a mix of 19th century devotions with medieval philosophy
I’m tempted to dispute the premise. Do atheists really do a bunch of weird stuff? I’m a second-generation atheist married to a second-generation atheist, pretty much everyone I have ever been close to has been an atheist, I just sorta assume by default that everyone I encounter is an atheist, and I’m rarely hit over the head by turning out to be wrong. All these people seem pretty boring and normal, “phenotypically” trad in the sense of doing the done thing (going to school, graduating, getting jobs, showing up on time to things, maybe having kids), even if they would not characterize themselves as self-consciously trad or self-consciously anything. Isn’t the whole “PMC” just kinda ambiently atheist and non-radical? Maybe there’s a poll or something that could resolve this empirically.
Then I’m surprised that atheists are less frequently self-consciously trad! Like I feel like there’s a sense in which it would make sense to see Amish-style atheist holdouts doing stuff like waiting a couple of gnereations to adopt hormonal birth control
It's weird that first you give the actual, boring, expected answer (namely that being an atheist requires going against tradition, thus it attracts people who tend to go against tradition), then you say that it is somehow weird and surprising. I can't see what you feel it is surprising about it.
I think that people in general tend to treat atheism and radicalism as logically related instead of as related by personality type, don’t you? So I was surprised when I conceived of things the other way.
I am a (rare?) atheist who feels the need for a "raft in the sea of an uncaring world" and here are the religiously inspired books I've found useful as self-help: Martin Buber's *I and Thou* (for finding and interpreting moments of meaningful-feeling connection), Ursula K. Le Guin's translation of the Dao De Jing, and a "mindfulness meditation" psychotherapy book (which makes no secret of being reframed and distorted Buddhist tradition).
So yeah, I'm interested in drawing on the wisdom of various traditions but in a way pretty far from the typical meaning of "trad". Notably, I've only ever been able to discover something useable in a religious tradition when it's already been processed by a skeptic -- if I try to listen to a true believer, it's too much cognitive effort to filter and restructure it in a way that makes sense to me, and it's unclear whether I will end up left with anything if I put in that effort.
Come to think of it, I'm also a fan of Franz Kafka. And *The Castle* is sorta the story of an atheist trying to become trad.
Usual disclaimers about anecdote is not data, but a significant amount of the lads in the job I work (tech field) who are default “small a” atheist are also avid consumers of wood working videos, bushcraft skills, and similar - could that be considered “trad adjacent”?
I wonder if it's partly because the supernatural is actually "natural" to human cognition, and atheism requires a leap that only modernity affords through lots of cultural development, and it still slips out sideways into superhero films and aliens and conspiracy theories etc (feel like there's better examples but ...). I'd argue there's still a clinging there, and we're seeing it's effects in consumer behavior.
Atheism came hand in hand with people being concerned about Science, which later developed to be opposed to stuff you can't see (with naked eye or instruments), and so it's more a categorical rejection of stuff you can't see, and "outside of what has worked so far" doesn't extend into "outside of our best tools for understanding reality", because faith is not put in cultural tech that's worked (trad) but faith in mechanical tech that's worked (science).
It is an interesting question though if there has been an increase in openness trait over the centuries. I'm not sure - I think we've been afforded more options for trying new stuff at low cost and with time to do so rather than being locked in the same village for generations. Rad / Trad axis feels like it's a different axis than trying new stuff in general (Marco polo exploration, which might be positively motivated by adventure and wealth than necessarily distaste for the old), and more how much you respect and are afraid of the fence vs how much you think there should be a different fence or no fence.
My observation is that atheists are generally not conservative and even though I am a conservative atheist, I find it unremarkable that I'm in the minority.
Religion is traditional, less-so now than it used to be, but still pretty normal. People with a tendency to reject tradition, reject religion along with lots of other traditional things. It's just their disposition.
one thing about atheists is that we generally dislike religious authorities and a very very common part of basically all trad cultures (actually trad or moderns-larping) is at least superficial alligance to one such authority.
Another major atheist trait is being generally okay with the whole uncaring world thing. In fact aiui being upset by that whole situation is a primary motivator for having religion at all! "the only raft in the sea of an uncaring world" is often religion + tradition. it doesn't surprise me at all that people who can do without one such raft also are less interested in others.
(and to be even more atheist, the only reason to have a specific religion at all is being invested in some way in A tradition. even new age religions usually claim to be ancient in some way. atheism might not cause non-tradness, but trad stuff causes religion. see ayan hirsi ali for a rather pointy example. a new atheist who decided she had to get a powerful tradition on side to fight Islam, and became christian.)
the actual answer is that 'trad' is a conservative aesthetic, and one that implicitly defines itself contrary to atheism by donning Catholic symbols, which is a rich vein. But because it dons the mantle of christianity, it cannot ever, really, be atheist as well, aesthetically speaking. the two streams are contradictory!
it doesnt help that 'trad atheism' has less aethetica to work with, having only existed, really, since the founding of classical liberalism, but it certainly still exists! One might argue that the Soviets and their cultural outputs were the closest thing we have to what could be called 'trad atheism'.
The reason you dont see 'trad atheists' in america in particular is because America has spent enormous amounts of time, money, and energy discrediting its former adversary through its propaganda outreach. (not hyperbole, im not using the word propaganda here morally, only descriptively)
not to mention is systematic dismantling of the CPUSA, which would have been the bedrock of a so-called 'conservative communist aesthetic'
its hard to have a 'tradition' to return to without a steady continuity. this is why catholicism works so well for trads!
Trad Catholicism is a very modern/postmodern movement, and they don’t have steady continuity with anything. It’s an identity constructed in reaction to the reforms of Vatican II and in opposition to the postconciliar magisterium of the church, and couldn’t exist without the conciliar reforms. In many geographical areas, they are rejecting actual continuous Catholic traditions in favour of their specific brand of LARPing a mix of 19th century devotions with medieval philosophy
*Are* they contradictory? "Atheism, but with Christian iconography" seems like a pretty good description of Satanism.
they are contradictory, thats why Satanism explicitly contradicts christian aesthetics and norms, while not actually being christian at all
satanism isnt meaningfully christian in any sense except, literally, a superficial one
I’m tempted to dispute the premise. Do atheists really do a bunch of weird stuff? I’m a second-generation atheist married to a second-generation atheist, pretty much everyone I have ever been close to has been an atheist, I just sorta assume by default that everyone I encounter is an atheist, and I’m rarely hit over the head by turning out to be wrong. All these people seem pretty boring and normal, “phenotypically” trad in the sense of doing the done thing (going to school, graduating, getting jobs, showing up on time to things, maybe having kids), even if they would not characterize themselves as self-consciously trad or self-consciously anything. Isn’t the whole “PMC” just kinda ambiently atheist and non-radical? Maybe there’s a poll or something that could resolve this empirically.
Then I’m surprised that atheists are less frequently self-consciously trad! Like I feel like there’s a sense in which it would make sense to see Amish-style atheist holdouts doing stuff like waiting a couple of gnereations to adopt hormonal birth control
I think that is basically what Robin Hanson has been trying to manifest 🤔
It's weird that first you give the actual, boring, expected answer (namely that being an atheist requires going against tradition, thus it attracts people who tend to go against tradition), then you say that it is somehow weird and surprising. I can't see what you feel it is surprising about it.
I think that people in general tend to treat atheism and radicalism as logically related instead of as related by personality type, don’t you? So I was surprised when I conceived of things the other way.
Maybe in societies where atheism is the norm (Czechia?), they would be more trad.
I am a (rare?) atheist who feels the need for a "raft in the sea of an uncaring world" and here are the religiously inspired books I've found useful as self-help: Martin Buber's *I and Thou* (for finding and interpreting moments of meaningful-feeling connection), Ursula K. Le Guin's translation of the Dao De Jing, and a "mindfulness meditation" psychotherapy book (which makes no secret of being reframed and distorted Buddhist tradition).
So yeah, I'm interested in drawing on the wisdom of various traditions but in a way pretty far from the typical meaning of "trad". Notably, I've only ever been able to discover something useable in a religious tradition when it's already been processed by a skeptic -- if I try to listen to a true believer, it's too much cognitive effort to filter and restructure it in a way that makes sense to me, and it's unclear whether I will end up left with anything if I put in that effort.
Come to think of it, I'm also a fan of Franz Kafka. And *The Castle* is sorta the story of an atheist trying to become trad.
>how few atheists I see who are desperately clinging to tradition as the only raft in the sea of an uncaring world, where no outside help is coming.
Posts very much not from the UK
Usual disclaimers about anecdote is not data, but a significant amount of the lads in the job I work (tech field) who are default “small a” atheist are also avid consumers of wood working videos, bushcraft skills, and similar - could that be considered “trad adjacent”?
I wonder if it's partly because the supernatural is actually "natural" to human cognition, and atheism requires a leap that only modernity affords through lots of cultural development, and it still slips out sideways into superhero films and aliens and conspiracy theories etc (feel like there's better examples but ...). I'd argue there's still a clinging there, and we're seeing it's effects in consumer behavior.
Atheism came hand in hand with people being concerned about Science, which later developed to be opposed to stuff you can't see (with naked eye or instruments), and so it's more a categorical rejection of stuff you can't see, and "outside of what has worked so far" doesn't extend into "outside of our best tools for understanding reality", because faith is not put in cultural tech that's worked (trad) but faith in mechanical tech that's worked (science).
It is an interesting question though if there has been an increase in openness trait over the centuries. I'm not sure - I think we've been afforded more options for trying new stuff at low cost and with time to do so rather than being locked in the same village for generations. Rad / Trad axis feels like it's a different axis than trying new stuff in general (Marco polo exploration, which might be positively motivated by adventure and wealth than necessarily distaste for the old), and more how much you respect and are afraid of the fence vs how much you think there should be a different fence or no fence.
Nice
My observation is that atheists are generally not conservative and even though I am a conservative atheist, I find it unremarkable that I'm in the minority.
Religion is traditional, less-so now than it used to be, but still pretty normal. People with a tendency to reject tradition, reject religion along with lots of other traditional things. It's just their disposition.
one thing about atheists is that we generally dislike religious authorities and a very very common part of basically all trad cultures (actually trad or moderns-larping) is at least superficial alligance to one such authority.
Another major atheist trait is being generally okay with the whole uncaring world thing. In fact aiui being upset by that whole situation is a primary motivator for having religion at all! "the only raft in the sea of an uncaring world" is often religion + tradition. it doesn't surprise me at all that people who can do without one such raft also are less interested in others.
(and to be even more atheist, the only reason to have a specific religion at all is being invested in some way in A tradition. even new age religions usually claim to be ancient in some way. atheism might not cause non-tradness, but trad stuff causes religion. see ayan hirsi ali for a rather pointy example. a new atheist who decided she had to get a powerful tradition on side to fight Islam, and became christian.)
Do you mean "trad" as in specifically Catholic, or weird, bad internet slippage?
I think atheists think of themselves as people who are willing to follow evidence to its conclusions, doesn’t it seem like that to you?